並前往https://www.listennotes.com/podcasts/%E8%81%B2%E9%A3%B2%E5%95%A4%E9%85%92/ep26-%E7%A6%BE%E9%A4%98%E9%BA%A5%E9%85%92%E5%89%B5%E8%BE%A6%E4%BA%BA%E5%80%91-ABFHMab5fks/