並前往https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-15-%E9%87%8E%E8%B2%93%E8%BB%8D%E5%9C%98%E9%96%8B%E7%81%AB%E8%BB%8A-%E5%9C%96-%E6%96%87-%E5%B7%A5%E8%97%A4%E7%B4%80%E5%AD%90-%E8%AD%AF-%E9%BB%83%E6%83%A0%E7%B6%BA-%E6%9D%B1%E6%96%B9%E5%87%BA%E7%89%88%E7%A4%BE/id1575163012?i=1000528688665